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James Loy:

On this episode, we speak with Dr. Michael. E. Dantley, who -- after a long and celebrated career in education -- is stepping down from his role as Dean of Miami University’s College of Education, Health and Society.

But retirement, for Dr. Dantley, only signifies another phase in his lifelong mission to build an educational system that works for everybody, to ask tough questions around power and privilege, and to enact transformative social change by being an outspoke champion of social justice, racial equality, diversity, and inclusion.

This is a mission he’s carried throughout his career as a public school teacher, a professor, a critical scholar and theorist, and as a university dean, who would use his influence to call more attention and urgency to the systemic barriers that continue to affect marginalized people.

We invited Dr. Dantley on the podcast to reflect on his time as a dean, and we’ll also talk about how he’s seen the educational system change over the years, and how it still needs to change. 

Michael. E. Dantley:

We've been able to say that, in various ways, education serves a certain segment of our society. But it leaves behind other segments of our society. And given that, what are we going to do about it?

James Loy:

And in a difficult year also marked by the death of George Floyd, and a substantial rise in Black Lives Matter protests all across the country, we’ll also talk about how this current cultural climate may be a tipping point in the ongoing fight against injustice and racism.

Michael. E. Dantley:

We're at a tipping point. I think we’re at a point that the struggle won't be hidden any longer. But the struggle will be out there. It will be pronounced. That turbulence is going to be real. And I strongly believe that out of turbulence comes change.

James Loy:

All that and more, on this episode of Reframe.

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James Loy:

Dean Dantley, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. It’s wonderful to have you here and to speak with you. So you have been in education for over 40 years now, in so many capacities. What was it that originally interested you in going into this field.

Michael. E. Dantley:

Yeah?  Believe it or not. Second grade I knew I wanted to teach. I was in elementary school, in second grade, I thought, I want to do this. I really want to teach. I don't know where it came from. I know I had a great teacher in second grade. I grew up in Cincinnati. Went to an all-black elementary school, and from that point, I thought that's what I want to do. I want to teach. There was a period of time when I thought I wanted to be a doctor. But chemistry took care of that. And so …

But education has been my life. Education's been my life. Teaching's been my life. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed it. My parents made me appreciate education. They were, I mean, they were really, really, really big on getting educated. They thought education was my route to success. And I followed that.

It's always been in my soul to be a teacher. Always. Always. So that's what I’ve done. That's what I’ve done.

James Loy:

And there have been so many different roles you’ve had in education. And I couldn’t possibly have time to go through your whole resume. But, very briefly, there’s been a couple of times where you’ve made the switch from working with students to an administrative role, where you went from an elementary school teacher working in the public school system to become a principal. And then again you made a similar transition in higher education from being a professor to working with students in a classroom to becoming department chair, working in the provost’s office, and then eventually becoming dean. So what was the motivation behind each step along the way? And the drive to climb that ladder so to speak? And to go from working with students to being more of an administrative leader?

Michael. E. Dantley:

I thought, honestly James, that I had a vision for how things could be. It was a vision about how I’d like to impact. How I could have a broader impact. And that’s what motivated me. And so being a dean, you have that freedom to have vision, and to guide and lead and get folks to coalesce around ideas. And that's what I wanted to do. That's what I wanted to do. And so being a dean … I’ve thoroughly enjoyed being a dean. For me, I think, ending my career as a dean is the best move … best move possible. Because I believe I’ve had some impact on the college, and on the college's influence in the community.

James Loy:

And since you have worked in the educational system for so many years at, again, almost every level, how have you seen the educational system change in this country. How have you seen it change over the years? What changes do you think you helped bring about? What is the current state, and how do you think it still needs to change?

Michael. E. Dantley:

Great question. Some of the unfortunate stuff is we haven't changed a whole lot. We have been impacted by governmental restrictions on curriculum, on what has to be taught, what our students have to learn, and that could be kind of problematic.

However, I think because I’m a critical theorist, I’ve been able to ask the questions about power, and asymmetrical relations of power, and I’ve been able to ask whose interests are being served through the things that education has done. And I believe that through some of my research, and even through some of the things that we have done, what I’ve done as an administrator, we've been able to ask those tough questions. We've been able to say that, in various ways, education serves a certain segment of our society. But it leaves behind other segments of our society. And given that, what are we going to do about it?

And so, I honestly believe that that part of the conversation has been something that I’ve been able to contribute to nationally, and also in our college, to get us to clearly understand that education is not working for everybody. There are still racial and social and gender issues in education that have to be dealt with. They've got to be dealt with. And because education ought to be -- honestly, James -- it ought to be for everybody. Every child ought to know that they are being enhanced by education. They're growing through their education. I look at my grandsons. One of them is at Walnut Hills. The other one is at Fairview in Cincinnati. Both of them are getting tremendous educations. Just great educations. They're being becoming critical thinkers, etc. That doesn't happen in every school. That just doesn't happen in every school. And that's what I’d like to see happen in every school.

I think I’ve been a problem to some people where education is concerned. Because I have raised those tough questions. Those critical questions about who's being left out of the process of education.

James Loy:

Do you think we're making progress? Or how far are we from that ideal, to where we need to get to where you think education could one day could be?

Michael. E. Dantley:

I think we're pretty far away. I think we're heading in the right direction to some degree. Again, the critical kinds of questions, and the critical perspectives that are being asked of our prospective teachers, and prospective leaders in education, I think that's gonna put us on a trajectory to become even more socially just, and become more critically responsive educators to what's happening in schools.

But, man, we've got to continue. One of the things that struck me is: I’ve been reading a book by Grace Lee Boggs called The New American Revolution, and I’ve also long-time read books by Bell Hooks, and others. One of the things that they talk about is that there's a difference between rebellion and revolution. And I agree 100%.

Rebellion, it starts a movement. Rebellion is necessary. It starts a movement. But revolution requires protracted struggle. And I think that's where we are in education. We've … some of the critical things we have talked about have infused notions of change, notions of transition. They've been infused. However, it's going to take a protracted struggle to see these things come to fruition in our schools. And we've got to have more people who are willing to do the struggling. We got to see more people who are willing to struggle to bring these things to pass.

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James Loy:

Based on how so much of your work has been focused on, and has used injustice and inequality and systemic racism and fighting for social justice as a foundational part of your work and of your leadership. I want to ask a big cultural question based on all the things that have happened so far this year – the death of George Floyd, the rise in Black Lives Matter awareness and protests, among other examples of systemic racism – Do you think we are at some sort of flash point or tipping point right now, in your opinion, about where we are as a culture in these conversations? And based on how our society is today do you think we are more or less able to make the meaningful changes that continue to be pressing issues now?

Michael. E. Dantley:

Yea, I think, James, I think it is a tipping point. I think for, instance, the Black Lives Matter movement - while it was around before - I think it now has more substantive influence. One of the things that I saw for myself, and not just on television, I was in some protests this spring. And one of the things that I saw was the multicultural group of young people who were there, who were protesting. I thought, now here's some hope. Here is some hope.

Now I still am concerned that my life as a black man still does not matter to some people. And it doesn't matter what accolades I’ve gotten. Doesn't matter what achievements I have made. For some people, they see me, the color of my skin, black male, and therefore, those stereotypes of how to treat me then begin to take place. And that's happened to me. I mean, it's happened to all black folks, I’m sure. But I know it's happened to me. Being stopped by police, etc, etc. So I think we're at a tipping point. I think we're at a point that the struggle won’t be hidden any longer. The struggle will be out there. It will be pronounced. That turbulence is going to be real. And I strongly believe that out of turbulence comes change. Yeah. I believe that.  

James Loy:

Absolutely. Do you have advice for how to make that change happen? Especially for people who may feel overwhelmed? Maybe young people who have no idea of where to start or what to do?

Michael. E. Dantley:

I think number one: We got to keep the people who for whom we vote, and they win, got to keep their feet to the fire. We cannot … see, I honestly believe that people have said that democracy is about voting, and it might be. But I think that's only a part of it. Democracy also is about voice. After the vote, how do we keep the folks that we elected, how do we keep them accountable for what they do? How do we do grassroots work in communities? How do we raise up leaders and communities to have impact? How do we use our churches and how do we use our community organizations to really have impact on what's happening with our communities?

So I think all of us begin to have an agenda of this protracted struggle. And somebody's got to put that out as a point for people to look towards, kind of an nadir, you know what I’m saying? This is what we ought to be doing. We cannot let other people do our work. We've got to do the work ourselves. We have to.

James Loy:

It seems like part of that -- in addition to being civically-engaged -- part of that seems to be focused around leadership, and striving to play an active role in that change that you would like to see. Leadership, in addition to being a teacher and a dean, as an academic, I know leadership has been a huge part of your work as a scholar. So I wanted to ask, given today’s cultural climate, what do you think it takes to be a successful leader today, and do you think that is different from what it meant to be a leader in the past?

Michael. E. Dantley:

Sure. I’m writing a book on leadership, and I think, honestly, some of the things that we have thought about leaders in the past, they've been mechanical things that … technical things that leaders ought have. I believe that a leader has to have compassion. A leader's got to have a sense of commitment. Got to. Leaders got to be able to communicate. A leader has to have a calling. I think you … you can manage without a calling. You can be a manager without a calling. You can't, in my estimation, you can't be a leader without a calling. Because you've got to have that kind of stick-to-itiveness, and perseverance, and that sense of something outside of yourself that keeps you going. Because there will be enough things that will cause you not to lead, cause you to stop. Cause you to give up.

But if there's a calling, and you recognize there's a destination that you want to get the organization to, that you got to keep at it. You've got to have fortitude. You've got to … you got to have a critical mindset. And I don't mean criticizing. But you've got to have a critical mindset that says what's not moral? How are we not treating people correctly? And how do we need to be uplifting folks?

And it becomes, really, for a lack of better word, an axiological or a moral or ethical kind of grounding that I think leaders have to have. I’m not talking about religion. But I’m talking about a sense of what's the right thing to do for people? What's the moral thing to do for people? And I think leadership has to be about that.

There's a scholar of leadership Ron Heifetz, who talks about the difference between leadership challenges -- that there are technical challenges that leaders can read a book on, or a policy manual, that will provide the resolution. But then there are adaptive challenges. And those are challenges that deal with their predispositions, their belief systems, that deal with their values. And oftentimes, leadership challenges are more about that than they are about handling technical challenges. And that's where the crux, I think, of leadership is. That's where critical self-reflection, I think, a leader has to have that comes to play in how do we make these decisions? How do we move forward? Recognizing that, perhaps, my belief system is antithetical to someone else's belief system, and … but their belief system is just as important to them as mine is. So how do we build a holding environment where we can talk about that? How do we then really resonate with one another, so that we can move the organization forward?

And so, I think communication and honesty and critical reflection, I think all of those are things that a leader has to have in these days, and … oh! And a listener. I’m talking so much right now. But you got to be a listener. I think leaders have to have the ability to listen, and to listen carefully, and to ask the tough questions.

Leaders have to be, again, not religious, but they got to be moral. And we got to make decisions that are a centered in justice and equity and fairness.

James Loy:

Absolutely. And given that that’s been such a tremendous part of what you’ve brought to the forefront here at our College of Education, Health and Society -- or EHS as we call it on campus here -- what would you say to young people to encourage them, or maybe to inspire them to pursue the kinds of careers, or the kinds of meaningful work that are all about making those positive changes in society, or making just a positive difference in the lives of families and people in so many different ways?

Michael. E. Dantley:

Oh yeah. We need them. We need young people in the careers that are housed in EHS because we've got to make a difference. And I think that the experiences that young people are bringing to the college at this point, they are so different from the experiences that students 10 years, 20 years, ago brought to the university. They have wider vision. They are seeing things in a much more different way.

And so, I think they come with an understanding that we've got to make things better. We've got to improve society. I think they see it. I saw that this spring in the young people that were in these protests. They understand that something's got to happen differently than what has happened in the past.

And so, I think having young people in the helping professions that are in EHS, I think, we're going to see more. More students who are interested in that work. Public health, I mean, given what we're living through, I think we're going to see more young people interested in public health. Given the mental and emotional strain that folks are going through, I think we're going to see more young people in ed psych, more young people in social work.

I think this is a pivotal time, when people are going to say, not only do I want to make money, but I want to have a positive impact on the lives of people. And I think we're going to see more of that. I really do. And I think EHS is the place. That's the place where young people need to come to be prepared to make a huge difference in our society.

James Loy:

We want to congratulate Dr. Michael. E. Dantley on his retirement, and thank him again for his years of service and his lifelong dedication to being a transformative teacher, and an unforgettable mentor, to so many.

This is the Reframe podcast, thank you so much for listening, please share this episode with friends, colleagues, or students – especially those who hope to make a positive impact in their world.