James Loy:

This is Reframe, The podcast from the College of Education, Health and Society on the campus of Miami University in Oxford, Ohio. 

It’s a pretty pivotal time for school psychologists today. Especially as we continue to hear about the debates between parents and teachers and administrators and politicians, all about how to best ensure the safety and productivity of schools. Guns and violence, certainly, have been big topics in the news recently. But there are also many other more day-to-day concerns that students and schools must also manage.

So in this episode, we talk about the critical role that school psychologists play. How they help schools address some of their more serious concerns, and even about some of the ways we can all help students live emotionally healthy and more productive lives. 

(MUSIC FADE)

So thanks for talking with us today, can you maybe, just start by introducing yourself and tell us what your title is? What you do? 

Amity Noltemeyer:

Sure. Amity Noltemeyer, professor in school psychology at Miami University.

James Loy:

So what are some of the biggest misconceptions about what a school psychologist does? Are there times when people say, “Oh you are a school psychologist? Well, then you must do X, Y, and Z.” And you have to say, “No, really, it’s more about this and less about that.” 

Are there misconceptions like that? And, also, how has the role changed in recent years?

Amity Noltemeyer:

Yeah. I think there are several common misconceptions about what school psychologists

1. Many people think that school psychologists do primarily counseling. So that they are working, you know, individually with students in a counseling or therapy type situation in the school. But school psychologists can engage in counseling with students, either individual or small group. But that’s often not the largest part of our role and function.

So the role is pretty varied. But it has changed pretty dramatically over time. So when the field first evolved, school psychologists really were considered the gatekeepers of special education. So really that assessment role. When a student didn’t meet the expectations of the school, they were often referred to the school psychologist to do assessments, to see what the most appropriate educational setting would be or if they required special education services. And so that gatekeeper role really persisted for quite a long time. But now we realize that those decisions about special education eligibility or about a student’s placement are really a team decision and a school psychologist is just one member of the team who brings a certain amount of expertise. But the field really is pushing more towards prevention, early intervention. And school psychologists, I would say, more now than 10 years ago, are doing more school-wide work. So is used to be that school psychologists did work with just those students with the most intensive needs. But now school psychologists are involved in building-wide initiatives such as positive behavior interventions and supports for the whole school. And working with teacher teams on core curriculum issues – social emotional learning, that sort of thing. 

So that’s another change that I think we’ve seen in the field is this transition from only focusing on students with the most intensive needs, to realizing that it’s a continuum of support that’s needed in a school ranging from general prevention work and helping with the general curriculum, to then the students with the more intensive needs.

James Loy:

Okay, that seems like a lot of things to focus on . . . 

Amity Noltemeyer:

Right!

James Loy:

. . .  for one person. Especially when you talk about this idea of students being on a continuum. Because I imagine all kids deal with stress and anxiety and frustration, at least on some level, right? It’s just part of being . . . it’s part of life. So, but on one end you have people that just have a normal amount of those things who could also probably use help and support. But on the other end, you probably have students who clearly need a lot more support. So how do you balance that, while trying to consider everybody? The students who may need a lot more of that attention?

Amity Noltemeyer:

Yeah. That’s a really good question. And it is . . . school psychologists are oftentimes working with schools to do some sort of screening. Pretty much every school has some form of academic screening in place. But more and more, we are trying to get some sort of behavior, social-emotional health screening in schools, to kind of establish early on students who might be at risk for certain things. They might be at risk for some sort of mental health issue or anxiety or something like that so that we can address those issues before they escalate and become more routine and more interfere with the student’s functioning. And then looking at the data and seeing are there students that we could provide some early intervention services to? Some small group supports, or something like that? 

But it is a challenge. The hope is that if we can address things with more prevention and early intervention, then we won’t have as many intense needs. And so there has been some research to suggest that that is the case. That we can reduce those numbers if we focus more on primary prevention. So, for example, with behavior by teaching social-emotional learning skills to all students and by modeling those and reinforcing those in different environments, we can reduce the number of behavior problems. It won’t eliminate them. But by doing that, then we can focus the attention that we have on students who do need more intensive support. 

James Loy:

And what are some of the major challenges that school psychologists face today? Overall, are there certain challenges that many if not all school psychologists have to manage?

Amity Noltemeyer:

Sometimes we know what works best for certain students under certain contexts. But that doesn’t mean that the school necessarily has the resources to be able to implement that intervention with fidelity. So it may be that research studies have consistently shown overtime that a particular intervention is very effective for, let’s say, students with conduct disorders or something like that. That doesn’t necessarily mean that the school has the personnel or the training rapidly available to do that for every student who would need it. And so, this knowing what, in an ideal world, might be a very good approach to a problem doesn’t mean it can actually always be implemented as you would like. So I think that’s a challenge. 

And then I would say another challenge is that, in my opinion, anyone who is involved in a situation with a student who’s having challenges either academic or behavioral. In the vast majority of times, everyone involved has the student’s best interested in mind. But oftentimes they differ on their interpretation of what that is and how you achieve it. And so, a school psychologist oftentimes has to mediate some conflicts between the different parties who all want the same thing for the student. They want them to be successful, but they have very different opinions about how that needs to happen. And so, I think an important part of the role of a school psychologist is to try to keep . . . the end goal being making sure we are doing what’s best for the student, but trying to understand the different perspectives. And while we may differ in how we want to get there, we are all striving for the same thing. And try to, like, at least get on the same page so that everyone is willing to move forward in a productive way. Because sometimes there can be disagreements about what that is. 

James Loy:

So earlier you mentioned . . . this is a question that I always have when I hear about things in the news. You talked about how schools are moving towards more intervention and prevention and support. But, like, outside of school, the larger cultural conversation, especially when you hear all the news about things like gun violence. Whenever there is an incident, the whole conversation in the news, politicians, parents, everyone, it seems to focus immediately towards more security or more legislation. And it always seems more . . . way more reactive than proactive. It always seems very curious to me on why that seems to be the focus and not the prevention or proactive approaches.

Amity Noltemeyer:

Yeah. That’s a great point. So one thing the field has transitioned into is school psychologists are becoming more involved in something called threat assessment, which doesn’t necessarily mean threat of guns. Threat of gun violence, though it could be. Basically anytime schools . . . more schools now are having procedures for any time there is a concern about a student that . . .  maybe they haven’t even made a direct threat, but there is some feeling or concern that maybe that student poses a threat or could pose a threat, that there is a series of procedures that are gone through to see is this just a transient threat? Or is this something very serious? Is this something that we might need to intervene with or not? And how? So I think that, although it seems reactive, it is a bit more preventive because oftentimes these things escalate. So I think that we are trying to catch things earlier and not ignore what later might be seen as red flags, things that have happened that indicated that maybe this person is experiencing either a threat of violence or some sort of mental health issue.

I also think an important thing for me, I agree with what you are saying about that we tend to be reactive with these things and I think that schools are doing better with reasonable security and safety measures. I think those are important to have those in place. I think some schools, because of all the gun violence that has occurred, have begun being more extreme in the measures that they are taking to ensure physical safety. And I think, to me, we really have to balance students’ psychological and emotional sense of safety with their physical safety. Because sometimes like research on . . . there’s been research with metal detectors, for example, that just the mere presence of those can actually make people feel less safe. Because it indicates that there is some sort of threat. So I think that schools are really going to have to grapple with how do we balance the need for students to feel emotionally safe in this space, with the need for us to put in measures that may make them feel physically safe. So I think it is a struggle. So I think that we have a lot of work to do as we move forward and . . . yeah.

James Loy:

I heard an interesting point made by an expert a few months ago on the news. It was on the increased security issue and he talked about why in the world would we want to make schools seem and feel more like prisons? Because prisons, like, they’re not safe places.

Amity Noltemeyer:

Right. I think . . . obviously this is a concern that we don’t want to ignore. But we also don’t want to engage in some sort of knee-jerk reaction that institutes very restrictive, harsh security measures. For example, the issue of arming teachers. Most national organizations including the National Association of School Psychologists and the National Association of School Resource Officers would oppose that as a strategy for a variety of reasons. And so, I think as we move forward, for one thing, overtime we are learning a bit more about school shootings and some effective types of responses and prevention strategies. But everything is kind of emerging and so I think school psychologists, they do bring to the table, along with several other professionals in the school, this understanding about students’ social-emotional development that can kind of help in that conversation.

James Loy:

But outside of that environment, it seems like, again, our culture at large just seems to be either unaware of that or it doesn’t see it as a practical way to solve these kinds of problems. Because, again, you ask . . . you hear from the average politician and it seems like the answer is always straight to more security or more legislation. Why is it never, “Hey, what about more mental health awareness and support?” Like, maybe that’s the best way to go?

Amity Noltemeyer:

Yeah, I agree with you. And when you think about some of the solutions that have been posed, the cost to some of those solutions is extremely expensive. So, to arm all teachers would be an extremely expensive proposition. And I think we would get far more bang for our buck if we could put that money into effective mental health programing. And there are . . . there is no magic solution to this problem necessarily. But there are . . . we do know there are certain evidence-based interventions that can reduce people’s risk for violence. So, there’s no once size fits all solution. But there are options that not all schools have access to. You know, not all schools are able to provide evidenced-based programming for mental health or for violence reduction or violence prevention. So I agree that in the conversation we need to be talking about more funding for mental health supports. And I think schools are an ideal place to do that, because not everyone is able to access community supports for various reasons. You know, there are some communities that are geographically isolated from any sort of mental health support for children. Or they don’t have the funding to do that or various things. So I think schools are ideal because students spend a great deal of their time there and it can improve access to the services.

James Loy:

That was literally going to be my next questions. Is if schools are the . . . an ideal place to provide mental health services and support? Yeah.

Amity Noltemeyer:

Yeah. And I think that schools are doing a better job of coordinating with community mental health support. Nowadays, many schools do have community-based providers that work in their schools. So schools obviously have mental health professionals in the school, but also sometimes partnering with community supports can be useful. 

James Loy:

Yeah. Recently I talked to actually a Miami educational psychology graduate who was just named as one of the area’s Top 9 Leaders in Education, and he did talk about. Whenever possible how he does network with outside therapists and counselors. So at least at some local schools here that is happening.

And it also reminded me of something else he said, which I think this might be relevant. He talked about how one of his main goals is to give his students the tools to cope with frustration and stress and anger. Because that’s just part of life, right. So there could be one incident in the present that they have to work through. But stuff like that will inevitably happen again, right. Because that’s just part of life. Down the road we will all feel angry or frustrated or stresses out. So he talked about building the tools so they have that toolbox to rely on for success, you know, going forward. 

Amity Noltemeyer:

I think you’re absolutely right. And I know that when I was a school psychologist, I did have the opportunity to do some small group counseling and that’s really what we focused on, was coping skills and coping mechanisms. Because you’re right. Students are always going to experience adversity and some are going to be very mild adversity. Some are going to be more severe trauma. But no matter what, to have those skills and to have the opportunity to practice them, those skills of dealing with interpreting, understanding, and moving forward when you are faced with challenges, I think, is a lifelong skill. So I think that’s a very good point.

And I think we as school psychologists can help students with that, but I also think that teachers do a powerful job of that too. So we can help . . .  by the language that we use in the classroom. So, for example, when a teacher faces an obstacle in the classroom. It might be something as minor as the overhead projector is not working and she can’t get her power point up on the screen or something very simple like that. The language . . . students are very observant and whether or not they consciously realize it, they are internalizing how the adults that they see are coping with challenges and failure. And so, I think that there’s really simple ways that we can teach students those resilience and coping skills just by modeling it ourselves. And particularly with regard to mistakes. Like viewing mistakes as opportunities, rather than real serious, I think, is important. So I think that we all have the capacity to make real simple changes in our behaviors and language that can have a really profound effect on students. Because students do look to the adults in their environment to understand how to respond in challenging times. So I think that it is important for us to self-reflect on how we behave in schools and how we react to situations so that then students can see, “Okay, well, maybe I can do the same thing.” 

James Loy:

That’s great. That’s a great message. I think that’s a great way for, like, for how almost everyone can help. How we can all get involved.

Amity Noltemeyer:

Right. Exactly. Yeah. 

James Loy:

Alright. Wonderful. Dr. Amity Noltemeyer, Miami University professor of school psychology, thank you so much for being here. And there’s also many more episodes of our podcast available on Sound Cloud and on iTunes, where you can also leave us a review and a rating. We’d love to hear all of your thoughts and feedback.